Memory Text: Ezekiel 4:6 KJV “And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”

Sunday, August 20 Prophetic Time
Why do we think that these texts do not refer to literal time?
Daniel 8:17, 19, 26 KJV “17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision. 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. 26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told [is] true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it [shall be] for many days.”
Daniel 9:24-27 KJV “24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom [are] ten kings [that] shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy [it] unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.”

Monday, August 21 Daniel 9 and Prophetic Time
Exodus 34:22 KJV “And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year’s end.”
Leviticus 12:5 KJV “But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.”
Deuteronomy 16:10 KJV “And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:”
Daniel 10:2-3 KJV “2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. 3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.”

Tuesday, August 22 Seventy Weeks and 2300 Days
What evidence do the following give for the day-year principle?
Numbers 14:34 KJV “After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, [even] forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, [even] forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.”
Ezekiel 4:5-6 KJV “5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.”

Wednesday, August 23 More Proof
Daniel 8:13 NKJV “Then I heard a holy one speaking; and [another] holy one said to that certain [one] who was speaking, "How long [will] the vision [be, concerning] the daily [sacrifices] and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?"”

Thursday, August 24 Day-Year Principle
Daniel 7 – NKJV “1 ¶ In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream and visions of his head [while] on his bed. Then he wrote down the dream, telling the main facts. 2 Daniel spoke, saying, "I saw in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the Great Sea. 3 "And four great beasts came up from the sea, each different from the other. 4 "The first [was] like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I watched till its wings were plucked off; and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. 5 "And suddenly another beast, a second, like a bear. It was raised up on one side, and [had] three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. And they said thus to it: ‘Arise, devour much flesh!’ 6 "After this I looked, and there was another, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. 7 "After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It [was] different from all the beasts that [were] before it, and it had ten horns. 8 "I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, [were] eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words. 9 ¶ "I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment [was] white as snow, And the hair of His head [was] like pure wool. His throne [was] a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; 10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened. 11 "I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 "As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. 13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, [One] like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. 14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom [the one] Which shall not be destroyed. 15 ¶ "I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit within [my] body, and the visions of my head troubled me. 16 "I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings [which] arise out of the earth. 18 ‘But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’ 19 "Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, [with] its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, [which] devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 "and the ten horns that [were] on its head, and the other [horn] which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance [was] greater than his fellows. 21 "I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 "until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made [in favor] of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. 23 "Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast shall be A fourth kingdom on earth, Which shall be different from all [other] kingdoms, And shall devour the whole earth, Trample it and break it in pieces. 24 The ten horns [are] ten kings [Who] shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; He shall be different from the first [ones], And shall subdue three kings. 25 He shall speak [pompous] words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then [the saints] shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. 26 ‘But the court shall be seated, And they shall take away his dominion, To consume and destroy [it] forever. 27 Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’ 28 "This [is] the end of the account. As for me, Daniel, my thoughts greatly troubled me, and my countenance changed; but I kept the matter in my heart."”
Daniel 8 NKJV – “1 ¶ In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared [to] me—to me, Daniel—after the one that appeared to me the first time. 2 I saw in the vision, and it so happened while I was looking, that I [was] in Shushan, the citadel, which [is] in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision that I was by the River Ulai. 3 Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher [one] came up last. 4 I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could withstand him; nor [was there any] that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great. 5 And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat [had] a notable horn between his eyes. 6 Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. 7 And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. 8 Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious [Land]. 10 And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down [some] of the host and [some] of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 11 He even exalted [himself] as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily [sacrifices] were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 12 Because of transgression, an army was given over [to the horn] to oppose the daily [sacrifices]; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did [all this] and prospered. 13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and [another] holy one said to that certain [one] who was speaking, "How long [will] the vision [be, concerning] the daily [sacrifices] and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled under foot?" 14 And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed." 15 ¶ Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice between [the banks of] the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this [man] understand the vision." 17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision [refers] to the time of the end." 18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end [shall be]. 20 "The ram which you saw, having the two horns—[they are] the kings of Media and Persia. 21 "And the male goat [is] the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that [is] between its eyes [is] the first king. 22 "As for the broken [horn] and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power. 23 "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes. 24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and [also] the holy people. 25 "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt [himself] in his heart. He shall destroy many in [their] prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without [human] means. 26 "And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For [it refers] to many days [in the future]." 27 And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick for days; afterward I arose and went about the king’s business. I was astonished by the vision, but no one understood it.”
Luke 4:25 KJV “But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;”
James 5:17 KJV “Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.”
Daniel 7:25 KJV “And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.”

How does the Bible student know when a day for a year principle applies and when it does not?

What of the seven days of the creation week?

The Key Question, Cricket.

In the 2 texts always cited to support this principle, God gave specific indication of His intent. This is not always so evident other places where the principle is applied.

Thanks!!

(I'm really glad this happens to be the topic for this week's quarterly lesson. My daughter is starting Biology in a Lutheran school and we were talking about the day for a year principle on the drive home.)

The ridiculous thing about this principle is that it is only really needed for ONE purpose - to turn the 2300 evening-mornings into 2300 years.

And there it is fundamentally flawed, because the "days" in the KJV is a mistranslation. It doesn't say day, it doesn't even use the same phrase that occurs in Genesis, it is unique phrase!

It is truely sad to see this particular dead horse resurrected and flogged yet again.

/Bevin

Aside from Daniel and the 2300 days, does it serve any other purpose? What was the original meaning of "I have appointed thee a day for a year"?

2300days/360days/year= 6.39 years

Considering this time period as 6.39 years, what is it's historical significance, if any? What would evenings and mornings refer to if not days?

This is an unusual prophetic time period because it, along with the 1290 and 1335 day periods later in Daniel are not evenly divisible by 7 or 12, like the 1260 days and the 42 months in Rev.

I touch on the issue briefly here: biblical literacy

Since you are very vocal about what the 2300 days is NOT, let us hear from you what it IS.

And since ALL the non-SDA commentaries that I have consulted understand the 70 sevens (heptads) in Dan 9 understand them to be weeks of years, why such resistance to the idea that the 2300 days were to be understood as years? Or are the 2300 days and the 70 wks just meaningless numbers God gave? So if you don't accept the 70 wks as years, let's hear your explanations then. Or are you resisting the idea the the 2300d = 2300 yrs, and that the 70 wks = 490 yrs, that if they are indeed years, you would be forced to acknowledge that the SDA understanding/interpretation is correct and you are wrong?

Gerry

Quote:

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In the 2300 evening-morning's of Dan 8:14 (a) it is does NOT say "day" in the original, and (b) there are no proportions/ratios/comparisons being given.

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Bevin, what does the orginial say? Evenings and mornings, or simply evenings?

Also, in Genesis we find the words evening and morning. Why weren't these translated in the KJV like the Daniel 8:14?

This is the stuff the SDA church should be teaching its members about Dan 8:14, and doesn't - it hides it away in obscure theology departments and doesn't let it out in SS or evangelistic crusades

Gen 1:5, Strong's numbering of the original words
|7121| And called
|0430| God
|0216| the light
|3117| "day,"
|2822| and the darkness
|7121| He called
|3915| "night"

|1961| and was
|6153| evening,
|1961| and {it} was
|1242| morning,

|3117| day
|0259| one.

Dan 8:14
14.
|0559| And he said
|0000| to me,
|0000| For

|6153| evenings {and}
|1242| mornings

|0505| two thousand
|7967| and three
|3963| hundred.
|6663| Then will be vindicated
|6944| {the} sanctuary.

The 1961 words are not present in Daniel.
Then, later in Daniel, we have

Dan 10:13.
|8269| But the leader of
|4468| the kingdom of
|6539| Persia
|5975| stood
|7398| against me

|6242| twenty
|0259| and one
|3117| days.

|2009| But look,
|4317| Michael,
|0259| one of
|8269| the rulers
|7223| first,
|0935| came
|5826| to help me.
|0589| And I
|3885| stayed
|8033| there
|0000| with
|4428| the kings of
|6539| Persia.

So Daniel has a perfectly good phrase for 21 days, and he uses a completely different phrase for 2300 "days". The KJV has a massive mistranslation at Dan 8:14. It doesn't say days and it doesn't say cleansed.

William Miller simply got it wrong because he didn't understand what his own bible was telling him, because he was working from a bad translation.

/Bevin

Gerry is demonstrating another point the SDA have failed to teach their people

In 9:24 it actually says "7 70", but there is no English phrase for this, so it is translated as "week".

Dan 9:24.

Quote:

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|7620| weeks
|7657| Seventy

|2852| are decreed
|0000| as to
|5971| your people,
|0000| and as to
|5892| city
|6944| your holy,
|3607| to finish
|6588| the transgression
|2856| and to make an end of
|2398| sins,
|3722| and to atone for
|5771| iniquity,
|0935| and to bring in
|6666| righteousness
|5769| everlasting,
|2856| and to seal up
|2377| the vision
|5030| and prophecy
|4886| and to anoint
|6944| the Holy
|6944| Most.

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But, in the context where it clearly means WEEK

Dan 10:2.

Quote:

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|3117| In days
|1992| those
|0589| I,
|1840| Daniel,
|1961| was
|0057| mourning
|7967| three

|7620| weeks of
|3117| days.

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The SDA proofs for day=week are flimsy, and are only needed to make this one untestable prophetic interpretation.

It is a huge and noisy but defense of a completely unnecessary issue.

/Bevin

Thank you, Bevin. I really like the breakdown you've supplied here. Are you using a free program online to access the numbers for reference??

Not free, but very nice - it is "The Bible Library Suite" from www.valusoft.com that I got several years ago

$13 from Amazon, just Google "The Bible Library Suite"

/Bevin

Thank you!

Cricket,

I have the older Bible Library Suite with 14 Bibles that Bevin mentioned, but more recently I got the Ellis Maxima Bible Library, ver. 6.0. It's similar to the Bible Library Suite, including numerous Strong's Numbers errors, but it has 24 Bible versions. The Holy Land Tour disc is nice, too.

I bought it new on Ebay and paid over $60 a while back. List price on the box is $99.95. I didn't think about looking it up in Amazon.

What's cool is when you open the Literal Translation, you can click on a word and the Strong's Definition will appear in the 2nd window. Like I said earlier, there are typos in the numbering in the Literal Translation. They didn't even fix them in the newer version.

I'm beginning to see the correlation between the Iron Legs and Iron/Clay Feet of Dan 2, the 4th People-Crushing Beast of Dan 7, and, the Horn coming from Greece in Dan 8.

This power arises after Greece is no longer a world power, but does not become active until the Time of the End. Kingdoms and empires have come and gone, but this power is still here, waiting to make its move. Some think it's Rome, but I don't.

Quote:

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NKJ Dan 8
16. And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision."

17. So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end."

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So, the events concerning the Sanctuary that occur during the 2300 days, or approx 6.39 years, will take place during the Time of the End.

I've really begun to appreciate Bevin's cool logic.

Unless Dan 8 & 9 are put together (and the connection is inescapable), and the 2300 evening-morning are understood as years, then 8:14 is a meaningless verse with no beginning and no ending. But Gabriel was very explicit when he said that "the vision of the evenings and mornings which was told is true," and that it concerned -

"..things (that) won't happen for a long time." NCV

"..for it refers to many days from now." NRSV

"..for it concerns the distant future." NIV

"..it will be a long time before it does come true." GNT

"..for it pertains to many days in the future." NASB


How distant? How about trying 2300 yrs, not days?

And if he was talking about years, which sanctuary is he talking about? Most commentators agree that the sanctuary destroyed in 9:25 was the NT temple that was destroyed by Titus in 70 A.D. It is inescapable to me that Gabriel must have been talking about the heavenly sanctuary and that Daniel understood it to be so.

Cont'd.

Gerry

If Dan 8:14 was referring to the earthly being restored that was destroyed by Titus, then our evangelical Protestant friends are correct in looking forward to Israel rebuilding another temple and restoring its sacrificial services. And they are looking for the Antichrist to destroy this rebuilt temple. I suspect that the reason Robertson was upset with the cease-fire was because he may have been hoping for this interpretation to be fulfilled. The evangelicals have erroneously placed a looooooonnnnnnnnng gap between the 69th and the 70th week, and ascribe to the Antichrist what Christ has done, i.e. 10 confirm the covenant, 2) bring an end to sacrifice and offering which His death as the sacrificial lamb took place at the Cross. This gap has no justification whatsoever!

But if the 2300 days is understood as years and connected with the 70 weeks/490 yrs of Daniel, then we have a beginning for the 2300 days that ended in 1844.

Cont'd.

Gerry

In the typology of the earthly sanctuary, it was cleansed as you know in the yearly service, the Day of Atonement. It was a very solemn day because the Israelites understood it to be a day of judgment. The santuary needed to be cleansed because of pollution.

"Now say to the rebellious, to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God: "O house of Israel, let Us have no more of all your abominations. When you brought in foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My santuary to defilre it - My house - and when you offered My food, the fat and the blood, then they broke My covenant because of all your abominations. And you have not kept charge of My holy things, but you have set others to keep charge of My santuary for you. Thus says the Lord God; "No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My santuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of israel." Ez 44:6-9 NKJ.

"Her prophets are insolent, treacherous people;
Her priests have polluted the sanctuary,
They have done violence to the law.
The LORD is righteous in her midst,
He will do no unrighteousness." Zeph 3:4,5 NKJ

Just as the earthly sanctuary needed cleansing, the heavenly needs cleansing, or if you prefer, "restored to its rightful state," "properly restored," "set right," "vindicated,". Satan, the greatest polluter of all, polluted God's sanctuary in heaven when he rebelled. It is further polluted by people who profess faith in Christ but who are "uncircumcised in heart." Since names are written in the book of life when one professes belief in Christ, and since not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom...", and since the RCC has also "cast truth to the ground," and ravaged the heavenly sanctuary and Christ's ministry by the institution of the mass and the priesthood, and since God has been blamed by Satan and by the insurance companies for all the mess were in, it is therefore proper that the heavenly sancuary be cleansed, or restored to its pristine state again. This can only happen if there is a judgment. No judgment, no vindication of God & His sanctuary. No judgment, no restoration. No judgment/cleansing/restoration of the sanctuary to its rightful/righteous state, there can be no receiving of the kingdom for the saints. See Dan 7.

Bevin, the 2300 days/1844 is no cornfield SDA concoction. It is as Biblically sound as the Sabbath, the non-immortality of man doctrine, or the literal/visible Second Coming, or any other SDA teaching. But, just like those three doctrines, people find all kinds of reasons to reject them

Gerry.

The astute reader will notice that Gerry completely ignored the facts that

(1) The phrase in Gen and Dan is different
(2) The phrase in Gen has all three words evening, morning, and day
(3) That Daniel has a word for day
(4) That Daniel uses that word when he means '7 days'
(5) That some of the translations and say '7' instead of 'week' to avoid the confusion

There is another fact that Gerry glosses over. Daniel does NOT say that the 2300 starts at the same time as the 490.

The 2300 is a length of time answer to a question in verse 13. Read the question, then the answer.

The 490 is starts with a different event! It is an answer to a different question.

These are not new discoveries of mine. These are issues that main stream SDA theologians have been raising since the late 1800's. They have never received a satisfactory answer, but the fundamentalist wing of the SDA denomination refuses to accept that there are huge difficulties in this particular belief, and that it is not worth the cost of its defense.

How many of these issues were discussed in SS today?

/Bevin

Quote:

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And if 70 sevens were to be cut off (that is the basic meaning of the Heb. chatak), cut off from what?

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Quote:

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24. Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
25. Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
26. And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
27. And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate

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490 years remaining in the whole of Israelite history. It is the last 490 years of the Iraelite nation that are being described, not the first 490 years of something.

As for your claim that the 7 is 7 days, it is ludicrious to claim that given the other texts I quoted.

/Bevin

Quote:

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10. His (the small horn's) power reached to the heavens where it attacked the heavenly armies, throwing some of the heavenly beings and stars to the ground and trampling them.
11. He even challenged the Commander of heaven's armies by canceling the daily sacrifices offered to him and by destroying his Temple.
12. But the army of heaven was restrained from destroying him for this sin. As a result, sacrilege was committed against the Temple ceremonies, and truth was overthrown. The horn succeeded in everything it did.*
13. Then I heard two of the holy ones talking to each other. One of them said, "How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven's armies be trampled on?"
14. The other replied, "It will take twenty-three hundred evenings and mornings; then the Temple will be restored."

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These events must occur during the "War in Heaven", that is, the war in space to herd Satan and his followers to Earth and destroy their spacecraft, thus marooning them on our backwards planet.

It's not a clean war, though. Zion, the flat-topped pyramid/mountain City of God upon which the Real Sanctuary rests, is attacked, perhaps while it is on the surface of the Earth.

Satan's forces overcome those guarding the Sanctuary, forcing them inside the city. Unable to breach the city's defenses beneath their feet, Satan's forces destroy the Temple Complex, including the barbecue pit used by the commander of Heaven's armies. Satan's armies trample on the exterior of Zion for 2300 days, or approx. 6.39 years. At that time the forces of good rescue Zion. The rebuilding of the Temple Complex occurs after that time period.


I'm thinking that everything we read in the prophecies of Rev. has already occurred, but to us it's the future. To God, though, it's the past. Messengers have been sent back in time to either warn us, or, to try to alter events to make the outcome turn out the way it's supposed to, that is, Good triumphing over Evil.

Sometimes I wonder if the 4 Beast of Dan 7 failed to appear in all of its destructive glory as it was supposed to.

The Statue of Kingdoms in Dan 2 and the 4 Beasts coming out of an angry sea in Dan 7 are not visions of the near future given to Daniel, but, of the distant future, near the very end of time as stated.

Whatever kingdom follows Greece in our history books is irrelevant in these two visions, because somehow, these 3 kingdoms will reappear in the last days, maybe in sequence, maybe simultaneously, followed by the Final Destructive Killing Machine Kingdom at the very end.

It may be a waste of time to try to identify the 4th Kingdom and the 4th Beast as something that exists today. The time periods, 2300 days, 1290 days, 1335 days, are likely to all be distant-future periods, also.

[quoteI've really begun to appreciate Bevin's cool logic.

]

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Yes, even the devil used "cool logic" when persuading Eve to take the forbidden fruit!

Logic compels the use of the "day-year" prophetic interpretation. No other interpretation will fit into the time period outlined by history -- unless, of course, you want to take this bit of Scripture right out of its context -- and call that "cool logic".

Beryl

Quote:

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(1) The phrase in Gen and Dan is different
(2) The phrase in Gen has all three words evening, morning, and day
(3) That Daniel has a word for day
(4) That Daniel uses that word when he means '7 days'
(5) That some of the translations and say '7' instead of 'week' to avoid the confusion

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What you are missing, Bevin, is the vital fact that Genesis is talking of literal time -- Genesis is a literal book -- giving HISTORY, whereas Daniel is a PROPHETIC book -- dealing with prophecy, and "there are none so blind as those who don't want to see".

OK, please give your interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel. You can't deny the historical facts of Babylon, followed by MediaPersia, followed by Greece -- all empires NAMED in the prophecy. And you can't deny that Greece - both in its whole and divided condition, was followed by Rome, in both its pagan and papal forms -- and that Rome is still with us today -- still in its pagan form, with its papal teachings still conforming to paganism.

This is an extract from "Catechism of the Council of Trent for Parish Priests", pp 258,259.

"We therefore confess that the Sacrifice of the Mass is and ought to be considered one and the same Sacrifice as that of the cross, for the victim is one and the same, namely, Christ our Lord, who offered Himself, once only, a bloody Sacrifice on the altar of the cross. The bloody and unbloody victim are not two, but one victim only, whose Sacrifice is daily renewed in the Eucharist, in obedience to the command of our Lord: "Do this for a commemoration of me".

"The priest is also one and the same, Christ the Lord: for the ministers who offer Sacrifice, consecrate the holy mysteries, not in their own person, but in that of Christ, as the words of consecration itself show, for the priest does not say; "This is the body of Christ", but "This is my body"; and thus, acting in the Person of Christ the Lord, he changes the substance of bread and wine into the true substance of His body and blood...

"This being the case, it must be taught without any hesitation that, as the holy Council of Trent has also explained, the sacred and holy Sacrifice of the Mass is not a Sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving only, or a mere commemoration of the Sacrifice performed on the cross, but also truly a propitiatory Sacrifice, by which God is appeased and rendered propitious to us. If therefore, with a pure heart, a lively faith, and affected with an inward sorrow for our transgressions, we immolate and offer this most holy victim, we shall, without doubt, obtain mercy from the Lord, and grace in time of need: for so delighted is the Lord with the odour of this victim that, bestowing on us the gift of grace and repentance, He pardons our sins."

But, you might say, that was from way back there, and they have modified their teachings these days. No, they haven't. I was studying with a Catholic lady, and so I decided to check up with the Catholic church as to its real teaching of the communion -- that the wafer became the ACTUAL flesh of Christ and the wine became the ACTUAL blood of Christ.

I was eventually directed to their Library here in Perth. When I asked my question I was referred to the chief Librarian, who firstly confirmed my understanding of their teaching, and then said, "let me read it to you from our latest official book. ' So here it is as dictated over the phone, from a current book, by the librarian at the Catholic Library of WA, Leederville, on Wednesday, 6 October 1999. After dictation the librarian requested that it be read back to her, which was done, and she confirmed that it was correctly written.
"

Mass -- Sacrifice Same as That of the Cross

Transubstantiation --
"Transubstantiation -- signifies the conversion or complete change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of Christ's Body and Blood, which occurs through the actions of a validly ordained priest during the Eucharistic prayer at Mass with the result that only the accidents or appearances of bread and wine remain.

"These accidents do not inhere in any substance whatever but are sustained in a miraculous way.

"Terminology derived from Aristotelian philosophy"

She was very particular that I got that last bit right! Confirmation that the focal teaching of the Catholic church comes direct from paganism!

Now, do you wonder that the old devil wants to hide these facts? Taking the Bible as it is written, and using only common sense, there is no doubt that Daniel was given an unbroken view right through to the end of the world. No wonder the devil tries to "deceive the whole world" in closing their eyes to the truth of the book of Daniel.

No other explanation is logical.

God bless,

Beryl

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The Statue of Kingdoms in Dan 2 and the 4 Beasts coming out of an angry sea in Dan 7 are not visions of the near future given to Daniel, but, of the distant future, near the very end of time as stated.

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Gary, in all kindness, what you are saying doesn't make sense. God is a God of order, and He has made things very clear for those who want to understand. The visions of Daniel can be followed logically, through history. The first 3 kingdoms (Babylon, MediaPersia, and Greece) are actual ancient kingdoms -- and any history book will confirm their existence, and there is no-one who would deny that the demise of Alexander led to the kingdom being divided between his 4 generals, and then being taken over by Rome. In Daniel's vision, that kingdom was Rome, and has continued to be in existence ever since -- both as pagan and papal. In Daniel's vision, there is no such thing as these kingdoms "coming back" at the end of time. The vision very clearly shows that Rome in all its forms continues until the "rock that was cut out without hands" (the coming kingdom of God) comes and strikes the image on its FEET (the only part still current)and the kingdom of God is established -- and there are no further kingdoms. God's kingdom is everlasting.

He has given us a wonderful promise in James 1:5,6 "If any of you need wisdom, you should ask of God, and it will be given to you. God is generous and won't correct you for asking. But when you ask for something, you must have faith and not doubt."

I pray that God will bless you in your study of His Word, and that you won't be lead astray by those who would cast doubts on the truths contained therein.

God bless,

Beryl

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490 years remaining in the whole of Israelite history. It is the last 490 years of the Iraelite nation that are being described, not the first 490 years of something.

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Bevin, your lack of logic astonishes me! Just ask any woman and they will tell you that when you go to purchase a length of material, from where is it cut? From the BEGINNING of the roll!! The end of the roll is called the remnant! Need I say any more??

OK, when you go for a trip, where do you start? At the beginning of the road map, of course! When you arrive at where you are going you are at the END of the trip.

So, when a person says that they are 50 years old, from when did they start counting the years? From their BIRTH, of course!! From the BEGINNING, not the END!!

The devil must think everyone is stupid to put a thought like that in their heads -- just proving that they are not logical!

Try again, Bevin, that one doesn't work!

Honestly, Bevin, do you REALLY believe that? I just can't believe that you do!

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Just ask any woman and they will tell you that when you go to purchase a length of material, from where is it cut?

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Well, maybe not any woman...

Grasshopper

Okay - if you want "determined" (a word, in the original, that occurs NOWHERE ELSE in the Bible) to mean "cut off from the beginning of something", then it means "cut off from the rest of the history of the world".

It does NOT mean "cut off from the 2300" because the 490 and the 2300 are answers to two different questions.

/Bevin

Come on, Bevin, you have more brains that that! If you read the book of Daniel through -- LOGICALLY -- you will see that in each of the visions God has given to Daniel a preview of the history of the world from that time to the end. You doubtless accept that in the case of Daniel 2 -- but reject it when it comes to Daniel 8 and 9!

There are none so blind as those who don't want to see!

God bless,

Beryl

One should be careful to treat everyone, including their beliefs, with the same respect and dignity that Jesus gave to everyone he encountered, even if they were wrong, even if they were jerks. (I'm slowly learning this one the hard way.)

For all we know, the canned SS Lessons could be composed of spam, or mostly spam. Some of us have to question the SDA doctrines lest we fill ourselves with spam and begin regurgitating it like an SDA automaton. Each of us needs to search the scriptures carefully for ourselves and not accept without question other's explanations.

These issues dealing with prophetic images are not easily provable, that is, we'll probably be long gone before they are all fulfilled. We may wake up to find out we were wrong, after all.

Even so, interpreting prophecy isn't a core issue, but following Jesus' example in dealing with stupid-idiot-moron-brainless humans like ourselves is.

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Even so, interpreting prophecy isn't a core issue, but following Jesus' example in dealing with stupid-idiot-moron-brainless humans like ourselves is.

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Like ourselves!!!

Cricket

The Book of Daniel has at least three recognizably different pieces

(1) The story of Daniel's times - the 3 Worthys, the Lion's Den, etc - clearly not prophetic

(2) The visions

(3) The discussion of those visions

The two questions and answers that we are looking at are in the Q&A section, not in the vision section.

As such, it is inappropriate to treat the Q&A as symbolic

/Bevin

please read...

http://clubadventist.com/adventist/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/229832