Take it easy Robert!

You make real nice arguments from Scripture. Just stick to those. Bad mouthing Ellen White doesn't help anything.

Most people here accept Ellen White's writings, so she is being used. Being able to argue from Scripture is a great thing, as this is a necessary skill for speaking with non-SDAs. John317 and others know your views regarding Ellen White. I'm sure John317 would be happy to discuss things with you just from the basis of Scripture, providing you don't bad mouth Ellen White. If you speak ill of her, of course he'll respond. Anyone would, just like you would if he spoke ill of Jack.

Can't you leave personalities aside and just concentrate on presenting the arguments you believe to be true?

Then explain GC 671-673, please. Also EW in those parts where she describes the destruction of the wicked.

Are you saying that virtually the entire SDA church has believed since the 1860s what Ellen White taught plainly against?

What's your excuse? I don't think it's education.


There's only one thing worse than an alleged ego-maniac. That would be an arrogant, disrespectful person who has a GENUINELY exaggerated sense of his own importance.




Whoa John, maybe you better stop. He's warning you.

Reposting for John317.




I'm asking specifically about the idea that God will set people on fire to suffer excruciating pain while being burned alive, something Ellen White describes as being made to "suffer torture." I'm asking specifically about this. Not about destroying the wicked in general, nor even destroying the wicked by fire (if this were to happen in a moment, as fire normally works, that would be a different question; it would certainly be more merciful than the idea that God has people burning literally on fire for days like a torch).



This has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm asking. I'm asking about your concept of God's character, your sense of morality, why these personal values you hold allow you to believe that God will set people on fire for days.




This is just a question of might. I'm asking about character.

I appreciate that you took the time to write a lengthy post, but you didn't answer my question. It's hard for me to believe I'm not being clear.

I'm not asking you what you think the Bible or the SOP teaches. You cannot answer my question by citing texts.

Again, this is a personal question, which has to do with your view of morality, your view of God's character. I'm asking you why you think it's moral to set people on fire to burn for days. I'm asking you why you think God would be capable of doing this.

Setting people on fire, torturing people, is something not ordinarily considered acceptable behavior. No earthly government, no matter how corrupt, allows for punishing criminals in such a manner. A government might torture someone in order to gain information, such as to prevent a terrorist attack or some other perceived threat against itself, but not as a way of punishing criminals.

I can't think of a more inhumane manner of punishment than what you believe. Can you? Why not do something like we do in this country. Put people in prison to set out a sentence for some amount of time which corresponds to their crime. Why burn people?

It doesn't seem like you're thinking about what really happens, according to your thinking. You're suggesting that God sets people on fire, to burn like a torch, right? Now fire would kill a person in a few seconds. The only way they could continue to burn would be for God to supernaturally prevent them from dying, so they continue to be tortured, because, clearly, if they die, the torture ceases.

Also fire would quickly destroy the nerve endings. So God would have to supernaturally act to prevent the nerve endings from being destroyed.

So we have a person set on fire, burning like a Molotov cocktail, with God acting supernaturally to prevent the person from dying, or from the nerve endings from being damaged, so this fire has no purpose other than to cause the person being burned to suffer excruciating pain.

So we have God inflicting the worst torture in the history of man to those who refuse to obey Him. And supposedly this is "justice."

And all the while, while asserting this, you deny that God uses compelling power to coerce the will. This could only be true of a person without rudimentary reason powers.

1.God tells me to obey Him.
2.If I don't, He will set me on fire to burn for days.
3.I better obey Him if I don't wish to be tortured for days.

This isn't hard to follow, is it? I think most people are capable of reasoning like this. I think any reasonable person would see that threatening to torture someone by setting them on fire for days is forcing the will.

But this is a side note to my original question, although I have been asking this too, so might as well include it.

So I'm asking two things:

1.Why do you think God's character is such that He is capable of torturing people for days if they don't obey Him?
2.Why do you think God's threatening to set people on fire to burn for days if they don't do what He says is not forcing the will?

As moderator:

Delete your post, and after you have deleted it, I will delete this one.

The simple explanation is that GC 671-673 is describing a vision which Ellen White was shown, and DA 764 is explaining how she understood the vision.



I don't think your view, that God will torture people by setting them on fire for days, has ever been something the virtually the entire SDA church as believed. If you read the writings of Jones, Waggoner, Prescott, whom Ellen White endorsed in the strongest possible language, they didn't believe this. According to Kevin H. there's been debate about the fire since the beginnings of Adventism. There's always been two sides to this question. It's not anything new.

Two reasons:

1.Because He said so.

2.Because by not obeying, you align yourself with Satan, and sin. Satan and sin must be destroyed in the end, and God has promised that He will do it. By aligning yourself with Satan, you bring the destruction on yourself. No one will be able to blame God.

Sure, this is true. But if we hear truth and the Holy Spirit convicts of it, but we still reject it, that is different. For instance, there were many Jews who were convicted by the Spirit that Jesus was the Messiah, and some even thought for a few seconds that Jeuss Christ was God-like, yet they rejected it out of jealousy and hatred. They will be held responsible for rejecting truth.

Only the Holy Spirit knows when this happens, though, so we can't judge.

Moderator:

Robert, if you don't delete your posts that are a violation of the rules, you will be banned from the theology threads. Please calm down and delete them and I won't say any more about them.

Richard Holbrook is antagonist. He is trying to get me thrown off....that's doing the devil's work....He tempts then he writes me emails saying "see you later"....He is trying to get me mad and then thrown off CA.

Well, he needs to be careful because none of us are above giving over to flesh....And that could lead to something he might not want....Guns won't help him either....He needs to watch his mouth.

If his idea is to tempt believers to sin, like I did, then one day he will meet something bad. Evil brings evil...